trees do not go to the sky. it has to cool down. >> don't go to the sky. got you. all right. cost of freedodom. the place business. ♪ ♪ so we still don't know the official enrollment numbers for obamacare. the white house won't release those until next week. but what we do know is most of the people signing up for older. not the younr healthy ones who are needed to keep the new bureaucracy aloat. does thamean big premium strikeare coming for all? let's go in focus with steve forbes, rich karlgaard, morgan brennan, john tandy,. are they coming? >> young people think they're immortal. they won't sign up unless they need it or have mental health problems.

of course they are going up. if they don't go up you are getting less or going to a different network. >> rick, it's expensi to sign up. >> this is premature, don't you think? we know younger people tend to do things at the last minute. i don't know what laughed but that is a silly thing to laugh at. it's nothing new. we know about the younger people. let's wait and see, let's wait and see -- stunning. if we're laughing at logic, why are we bothering to have a conversation. you must not have had kids. more importaly, i want to talk about the reassurance pool that people don't know is there. we have a reassurance pool so if numbers don't work out this year there is something to fall back on, so we'll keep any increases fo the next three years down. >> mike, we are laughing because yes, we know young people, and you can cry or laugh. you haveour choice. i choose to laugh but the fact is insurance is a product. people who don'tdirectly benefit fr it won't buy it.

that is the young people. that's they are not interested in buying. >> that would be the natural consumer response. but i also thi another possibility is they have creased the penalty for not buying it. in other words, they raised the amount they will punish people who don't go in and buy th lousy obama snake oil. what could happen is they make not get enrollment right away. but rick could be right. the enrollment could goup because the punishment for n enroll willing go up. >> morga just to be clear about this. this first year the penalty 1% of your income. so if you make $30,000 a year, $300. that goes up to 2.5% of your income in 2016. >> yeah. i think as long as you have 1% of income rght now or $95 to opt out you will see some young adults choose that right now. that being said, going back to rick's point, i happen to agree. if you look at when massachusetts rolled out the hethcare in 2007, the supposed data shows a lot of young adults came in at the last minute.

weave a shoddy website. young adults are not going there. they are waiting. another point to be made. we saw the jobs report this week. have young adults looking for jobs. they're holding out on that option as ll. >> rich, there is another thing that young people are waiting for. having kids, i know how they work rick. rich, kids often will wait until they are forced to, until they are coerced to. and so far, they're waiting to see how much they can get away with, right? >> well, yeah. there's that. there is also the fact that the cultural ions, jon stewart are ochingly laughing at the program -- opingly laughing at the program. so you have technology that doesn't rk. this is a tech-savvy group of people. comedians on right and the left laughing at the program. and now you have number three, that obama broke his promises, said in 2009 and 2010. so, you kn, you have lack of trust going on here among young people. i will create actuarial death

spiral. >>ohn, this is basic economics, isn't it? like when the president told us none of this would cost a dime. you insure more peoe it will cost money, right? >> t obaadmistraon, eensi rics vdali ofasicconics uld fuy ifteretoingo haveo ma vicms. simp tru, the isno inrancwitht hethy people. but the obama exchanges give young every incentive to opt out and the highest risk, every incentive to opt in. premiums will rise based on what fails simple economics. >> steve, after the broken promis, so far, again, it's only beginning to roll out. but we have alady seen so many broken promises. you won't be able to keep the health program you like. you won't see the premium goes up. they have gone up. >> that is the elections next year when the businesses have to sign on to this thing. there have been estimates that half the business people are signed on, on businesses are

going to lose. they are estimating 93 million people will not haveheir insurance. they are going to be outraged. that is why this thing will collapse, among other reasons. >> but rick, you already have these things that have happened that weren't suppos to happen, right? >> yeah. things that have happened in the first 30 days. look, we seem to be fact challenged this morning. jon stewart has never -- let me underline "never" -- made fun of the program. made fun of the execution of the program, something none of us are pleased with. >> rick, hold on a second. how much longer can you divide the executi of a program from the program itself? eventually they are the same thing. >> eventually they are. but if you think any rational person thinks that 30 days is enough to judge it, i don't know what you consider a rational person. >> perhaps, rich, jon stewart is not rational. he is not just laughing at the implementation of it. >> yes, he is. >> he is laughing of the

>> no, he's not. it. that young people will want to run out and buy something they didn't have to watch before. >> i don't know if you watch him, i watch every night. no, he is not laughinat that. >> at any rate, whoever is laughing at whatever, the fact is, rich, that the program just doesn't seem to be working. it's not just the rolling out of one part of it. i seems to be the whole thing. >>eah. but i would like to int out that rick is among those who believes that obama didn't break his promise here either. >> no, i'm not. no, i'm not. >> you have tremendous problems here. look at the virginia governors race to go to steve's poinof the political consequences of this unlaughing. terry mcauliffe in the governor's race in virginia had a 12 to 15-point lead two weeks before the election. then it became dely kno that obama misspoke or however you want to charactize the broken promises. and the republican close the gap to within two points and in another week would have w the race. that's how toxic this plan is.

>> go ahead, rick. >> can i jump in? friday night on theean hannity town hall and again on monday night on the sean hannity show i specifically said that obama did break his promise. and i'm really getting a bit tired this morning of people playing so fast and loose with the cts. >> okay. we have to leave it at that. cong up, remember this. >> all the shuown is doing is making it harder for ordinary americans to get by. and harder for businesses to create jobs. >> shut down will hurt our economy, threaten job throughout job creation. >> the shut down has an effect on g.d.p. which in turn hasn effect on hiring. >> well, did this nuer just smack down those warnings? s news

headquarters. ♪ ♪ well, stunning jobs report on friday. stunning because the administration and its friends in mainstream media were gurdg us to expect a terrible jobs report because of the partial government shutdown. well, it wasn't terrible. in fact, the 2004 new js created were twice as many as what some economists were expecting. john, you says this proves we n survive fine without big government, right? >> of course. anytime the government sector slinks that means the private sector grows. when you look at how companies are formed, they are formed based on investments.

so if government consuming less capital, that means there is more capil in theprivate sector. company form and jobs created. this would be good for an economy. we should have kept the govement shut down longer. >> rich, this reminds you, rich karlgaard, offed what with the sequester. the administration, ahe friends in the media said it will be terrible, your life won't be the same. we did it. it hasn't been too bad, has it? >> well, america is the land of enterprise and of incredibly productive enterprisers. it shows you thatven bad policy coming out of washington really can't kill that srit. and by bad policy, you know, we have the administration, we have congress, the senate, the run-away federal bureaucracy, unstable money. a lot of head winds that hit america. we should be growing at 4%. >> rick, even the head of bureau of labor statistics the institution that comes out with the figures said really there was no discernible

impact from the partial government shutdown and the jobs numbers. >> yeah. that is apparently true, although i have to say this the argument that this somehow boosted employment is interesting. because what you're saying is everybody got together -- >> no, no, no, no. hold on, hold on. don't misquote it. we're not saying it boosted up employment. we're saying it didn't have as detrimental effect on employment. the economy is rolling along especially with smaller government. >> 17 days we're unfortunate we lo $25 billion in economic action $6illion of governme -- i don't understand why that is funny. what is the point you're making? got shutdown and people plan employment figures for the next month this is relevant? >> the point -- >> wait, wait, wait. rick. you ask question. give us a chance to answer. rick, the point is, mike, we had g.d. figures this week that were up a little bit.

despite e sequester and the shutdown. it looks like the economy can work without the big government. >> you are right. we're taking a page from bill clinton play book who shrunk it before the overall economy. before the shutdown the expectcation was that the economy would grow by 1.8% in the third quarter. now they are saying 2.8% growth. we saw the same thing in the sequester, expecting the growth of 2.5% in the quarter. excuse me, 1.2%. came in at 2.5%. why? faer growth in private sector. that is exaly what happed when bill clinton was president. >> i listened to n.p.r. most of the moment and they talk about the dire consequences of the government shutdown, they expect a terrible jobs report and the government shutdn. it didn't happen. >> what mike is referring to, i went and did a web search. thousands of news stories said the government shutdown would hurt the u.s. economy and it

would shave nearly percentage point f of the g.d.p. growth. it didn't. i did not do that. g.d.p. growth is up at 2.8%. rich is right, we need to grow to 3.5 to 4%. i'm thinking we ar in the united states of amnesia right now. why are we so dependent on what the government does in we ve been through decades before of crisis. where the u.s. economy has come out of it. because the sector has stepped up to the plate. 212,000 jobs created by private sector this past report. >> maybe we should have kept the shutdown the longer? >> the less government more chance you have for private sector to grow. we shodn't break out the sham pape too quickly, because the government shutdown disskew the rvey. you have mor companies reported on the establishment survey. that might have skewed the number. the household survey was not good. i ink we wait a month to see how strong the job market is. >> this is not to say that the

economy is doing swimngly. if it was, we'd be growing about over 3%. right? >> it's got to be remembered, government has no reurces. when rick talks about $25 billion loss, that was initially taken from us. would you rather john boehner and nancy pelosi allocate capital or have the capitalists capital -- capitalists allocate capital? any time we shrink government rel capital is deployed to make us prosperous. >> rick, go ahead. >> when i tried to raise the question before, if you are saying that the shutdown resued in more employment you said i was going off-point. david you just said maybe we should keep the government shutdown more often. >> that was not the question. >> we have to go to joe biden spending the obama stimulus where he said more government spending, more government

borrowing. that's the way out of the recession. he saiy month we'll be having 250,000 jobs an average a month. that never hapned. >> you know wh joe biden's twitter hashtag reads? #mythoughtsarefact because my thoughts are facts. what i think is not a fact. it's not. >> so if your contractor botched a job at your house do you hire them for more jobs? the government just did with the company behindthe glitch ridden healthcare website. that's at e bottom of the hour. but first up, right here, can't pass new tax hikes? pass new user fees. th is a new d.c. code word that will have you yelling "code blue." coming next.

♪ ♪ remember when senate majority leader harry reid saidthis? >> the only people who feel there shouldn't be more coming in to the federal government from the rich pele are the republicans and the congress. everybody else iluding ric people are willing to pay more. they want to pay more. >> i don't know if i wt to pay more, but look out because new reports that taxpayers will be paying more. and lawmakers fou a creative way to get you to pa more. they are called "user fees." high fees for airport security. but emac, you say no matter what you call it, it's a tax. >> this reminds me. i'm going to do a twist on what president bill clinton said once.

it depends what the word "fee" is. the word "fee" is really a tax. what we cited more states over the last five years are becoming addicted to the fiscal sugar. $100 billion in "fees" which are really taxes in the last five years alone, david. >> so it's a tax, morgan, no? >> i'm going to say no. because a tax by definition is involptary fees. these are not involuntary. at least on the individual level. you are talking about user fe tied to park admission and increase airport security. if y don't wantto pa those fees you can opt out of taking advantage of those services. >> sales taxes are also voluntary as well. you don't have to buy the item. >> what about that? are they a tax or not, the new fees? >> sadly they become taxes. fee for legitimate service, fine. we saw the gal fund, they raided that. airport taxes supposed to go for the air traffic control. instead rated for other things. in this case it's sadly a tax. not a fee for a service.

>> rick, even in president obama's budget he is calling for $300 llion in the new fees. >> i think both morgan and steve have it right. this is a user tax. it's not unfair to tax people for using something for somebody else doesn't use. why should i pay for a road i'm not driving on. but steve is right, there are incidents where the fund is raided for other purposes. do user taxes but keep it segregated for the legitimate purpose. >> i want to get back to what harry re said. he said everybody wants to pay more. do you want to pay more for a wasteful, dysfunctional government? >> i'm not a 1%er like rick -- >> you are ner going to be either. >> good for you, rick. >> if we paid substantially reced rates but user fees would make sense. but th problem now is we are give toog much to federal government. i don't want to give them other funds to raise. >> rich, what do you think? >> i find myself shockingly in

agreement with rick ungar on this. i don't think somebody does not fly shld have to pay fees to the t.s.a. but as steve points out, you ow, this stuff is abused all the time. hat the steve, isn't the money is going -- again, you have more money from the private productive sector the wasteful government sector. >> yeah. if we had small government people wouldn't mind to pay a fee to go to the airpla if that's where they thought the money was going for. there is great support in the '50s for gasoline taxes to build the interstate highway syst bause people thought the money was going for a real purpose. >> morgan, again, it gets to the point -- milton freeman used talk about this, the more money you take from the private sector the weaker the economy is because you take it from the onlyector creating something. >> not necessarily. let's go back to florida for a second. they raised user fees in the la couple of years. the economy was walloped in the downturn. they have come in with a budget surplus for the state. part of the reason is the user fees, despite no income tax

and no property taxes compared to other states like texas. >> florida has a t of cities that are practically insolvent. look at miami. the state is running budget deficits. they can tax and see and nickel and dime all they want. it doesn't mean you will get more revenues coming in. it's because bureaucrats are wasting the money. >> florida cut a series of business taxes which is a reason why the economy has come back well. >>ice weather. let's not dump all the time on florida. coming up, worried you miss this year's run-up in the stock market? don't. the informers have etock ady go on tir o rerd r. th cinext.

we're backith the informer stocks ready to hit new highs. morgan, hsbc, the bank. you like it? >> this is an emerging market play. really strong earnings and they pay a nice 3.6% divend. >> you like it? >> slippery rockety ride. they'rsmack around by regulated tier in the united states and inuropean union. >> okay. you like aerospace, spdr, a collection o aerospace companies. >> yeah. e.t.f ., snp aerospace. defense has great names in it. slim volume right now. rocky ride. but up 29% year t dat >> morgan? >> three words that clared war on the fund. defense spending cuts.

>> we'll see that. is it for "forbes on fox." have a great weekend. thank you for watching. keep it here. the business block contitinues with eric bolling and "cashin' in." get well, annie. get well soon. the apology after the pledge. did president obama just join this club? >> no one in the white house staff, no one in this administration, presently employed was involved in this very bizarre incident. >> i did not have sexual relations with that woman. >> if you like your healthcare plan, you will be able to keep your healthcare plan. period. >> all broken promises, and backtracking. but will this one be the most costly to america and then talk about rewarding failure. the government awarding millions in two contracts to the same company behind the glitch-ridden obamacare weit